Women’s Resource Center Worth Discussing — From All Sides
I am a woman. I am active in Queers and Allies, I am active in Women’s Initiative, and I work at the Women & Politics Institute. I’ve interned for the Feminist Majority Foundation and THE LINE, a groundbreaking campaign to end rape. I am the brains behind (con)sensual, the localized campus campaign for consent. I am hoping to pursue a career in advocacy. I am seeking a major in Women’s, Gender, and Sexuality Studies and a certificate in Women, Public Policy and Leadership.
But that is not why I support the Women’s Resource Center.
I support the WRC because I think it is key to achieving our university’s goal of being an institution of pride, inclusion, and student-centered policy, and I think that the WRC’s outspoken critics have often been misinformed, abrasive, and incorrect.
The WRC is neither useless nor redundant. WI is not a WRC. For example, one of the WRC’s key purposes is the decentralization and mainstreaming of sexual assault resources. This will make the process of reporting and receiving support for rape and sexual assault easier, less emotionally volatile, and more efficient. These resources, although created for a problem that affects women disproportionately, will help all students at AU and create a much safer campus climate. Similarly, the WRC will offer programming and guidance on other issues of interest to women and that disproportionately affect women- economic problems stemming from institutional sexism, disordered eating and relationship violence, to name a few. The WRC will also offer resources for women hired by AU itself, making it easier for them to navigate professional situations in the male-centered world of academia. Most importantly, the WRC will institutionalize and further expand on progress made by WI, shifting what is now a student-run effort to include women in the decisions of our campus leaders to a professional, faculty-led movement to make sure women on campus are respected, heard, and represented fairly.
The WRC is not a bastion of man-hate, nor is it a dig at all the guys at AU. It is a safe space, with literature concerning women, issues affecting women disproportionately, and women of import; with trained faculty to counsel students on issues from academics to date-rape; with guidance and resources available for students and faculty alike on how to succeed - in the AUniverse and the larger world - despite the obstacles of institutionalized sexism and pervasive discriminatory practices in our culture.
A Women’s Resource Center is much less about feminism and women than it is about equality and all people on campus. It is a much-needed step toward creating a truly student-friendly campus climate, and no amount of argument about the number of women on campus or the “mythical pay gap” will not only fail to conceal its necessity, but will rather exacerbate it.
Carmen Rios
Sophomore, CAS and SOC
Knepper misses point about resource centers
I am appalled at the opinion piece written by Alex Knepper in the Nov. 16 issue of The Eagle. His article, “Feminist — err, women’s center wastes money,” is not only one of the most disgusting things I have ever read, but also one of the most misinformed. He states that there is not an academic, economic or health-based need for a Women’s Resource Center to be established, but the arguments he makes based on “fact” are both wrong and highly offensive.
He presents the fact that far more women attend AU than men as an argument against the academic need for a Women’s Resource Center. Now, perhaps if all of the women on campus were women’s studies majors, this would be true, but we’re not. A resource center would be a valuable supplement to both sexes interested in furthering their knowledge on women’s issues.
Next, he argues that women “make more money than men in about 40 professions.” According to Knepper, this completely discounts the “myth” of the pay gap. I would argue, however, that it isn’t about who makes more in 40 out of several hundred professions, but that everyone is paid equally for equal work. It is not a competition between the sexes as to who can make more money, but it is a fight for parity in the workplace for both men and women. I’m not quite sure what he meant by there being no economic need for a resource center, but there is indeed disparity in which kinds of jobs women hold, as well as in what they’re paid; I think educating people about this fact is an undeniably important task that a resource center could help to accomplish.
Lastly, he argues that there is no health-based need for a women’s resource center. Women who have been raped or sexually assaulted, according to Knepper, don’t need “a room filled with feminist buttons and books by Andrea Dworkin.” As a survivor of rape, I would emphatically state that if anything, I would trust a Women’s Resource Center to help me find what I need before I would trust Knepper to do the same. Women are different. Experiences with rape and sexual assault are different. One woman might find Dworkin to be a comfort, while another may not. The fact that such a resource is there is a good thing for survivors, as well as for people who want to dissect the rape culture in which we do indeed live.
As Knepper also points out, I will agree that, yes, there are hospitals in the area. Yes, there are sexual assault hotlines and a Student Health Center on campus. But I can attest to the fact that rape is a traumatic, terrifying and confusing trespass on one’s body and mind and a hospital or a hotline are not options a survivor may realize she has or feels safe with. A resource center, on the other hand, can point women and men in the right direction in terms of recovery and empowerment after an attack. Resources can help survivors heal and grow after one of the worst experiences of her life. If this center were to help just one person cope, then I think my tuition money is worth it, at least.
Basically, I think this article was insightful as to why a women’s resource center is so important to the AU community. There are numerous misconceptions in regards to women’s issues that could be dispelled by adequate resources.
As a final comment, I don’t know what Knepper was trying to accomplish by derisively calling it a “feminist resource center” instead of a women’s resource center. It’s 2009. Feminist is not a dirty word. It is not a degrading word. It is not an obscene word. It is a powerful word — and it can be threatening to those who fear equality and empowerment exhibited by women. Alex Knepper, you don’t need to be threatened by that word. Strong and smart women are actually a pretty good thing.
Erica E. Best
Junior, SPA
Veterans’, Women’s resource centers should not be compared
I am writing this letter in response to the editorial, “Questioning new resource center” dated Nov. 1. I strongly resent the board’s utilization of veterans’ issues as the basis to attack the necessity of supporting women’s equality at AU. This nation was founded upon the premise that “All Men are created Equal.” This notion has been defended and secured by those service members whose efforts you seek to manipulate for your own petty political purposes. While I firmly believe that veterans deserve all of the support that we can provide, I have a hard time believing that any veteran would want this support to come at the expense of others who are also in need of it.
If you wish to make the argument that women do not necessitate added assistance from the university or that the services offered by the proposed Women’s Resource Center are duplicitous with other resources within the university, then I respect your right to do so. I disagree, but even more to the point, I would posit that the creation of a veterans’ resource center is completely immaterial to your argument and that a veterans’ resource center should not be associated with the attempted deprivation of a service aimed at benefiting the general welfare of the student body. Your motivations in this instance are readily transparent and are not at all consistent with the notion of service that this university and our Armed Forces were founded upon. In the future, I would suggest that you allow your arguments to stand on their relative merit and that you resist the temptation to resort to cheap political pandering.
If you wish to support the veterans on campus, I would suggest doing that as opposed to arguing against other initiatives.
Daniel Rogers
Veteran
Sex column questionable to LGBT community
When I learned that there was an article in The Eagle addressing stereotypes of the lesbian community, I was excited to pick up a copy of the paper. This enthusiasm quickly dissipated by the third sentence when I learned that, according to the AU Threesome, lesbians are not a community, but a “phenomena” to be studied.
In an effort to acknowledge that the column attempted, but failed, to be humorous, I can look past the inaccurate comparison of lesbian sex to Jell-O shots, the offensive implication that lesbians are all biologically the same and even the language that suggests that “encountering a lesbian” is similar to running into a strange creature in the wild. What I cannot seem to move past, though, is the Editor’s Note at the bottom of the column, which reads: “In an attempt to prevent misinterpretation, we would like to acknowledge our sex columnists are of varying sexual orientations and genders.”
While I’m glad that The Eagle has taken a non-heteronormative approach to the sex column, what this note implies is that The Eagle staff does not regard members of the LGBT community to be capable of saying things that offend and hurt persons in their community. It also assumes that all LGBT people are the same and that if one gay identified person finds something acceptable, then the rest of the LGBT community will too.
This is not the first time The Eagle staff has used this problematic argument. On Sept. 2, in an effort to defend the AU Threesome column “Sex-perimentation Defines Welcome Week,” the Eagle stated, “the Scene section’s editorial staff, which is comprised entirely of women, reviewed and approved the piece before it went to print. They thought it was fine.” This, again, implies that because a few women found something “fine,” so would all women. Based on the controversy that article raised, I would hope they have learned that this is not the case.
People of marginalized communities — LGBT identified people, women, people of color, people with disabilities, economically disadvantaged people, etc — are not homogeneous. We do not all find the same things acceptable, funny or offensive. The Eagle can publish a sex column that is offensive to some lesbian women if it so chooses, but it should not use the presence of a LGBT columnist to justify doing so.
Sarah Brown
Senior, CAS
Director, Women’s Initiative
CLEP exams cause missed opportunities for students
The Eagle’s Nov. 11 staff editorial, “Touting tests worth taking,” suggested that more students should be encouraged to take CLEP exams and the university should accept more CLEP exams for course credit, mentioning as potential benefits the savings in tuition dollars and the possibility of smaller General Education classes. The two recommendations are linked, in that if the university does not accept CLEP exams for course credit, there is no real incentive for students to take them. Review of exams is the province of the university’s academic departments and faculty, and at present the faculty have only found five of the CLEP exams to come up to AU’s academic standards. The only way for that to change, ultimately, is for the CLEP exams to become more rigorous, so that the faculty feels comfortable granting course credit for students who do well on them.
As for the General Education Program, The Eagle’s editorial board would do well to remember two things. First, a student may only use four exams overall for General Education credit; that includes AP exams, IB exams, and the like. Thus, it is far from clear that more students taking CLEP exams would result in smaller General Education classes. In the end, the most important determinant of average class size is the overall faculty-to-student ratio of the university, and no number of exams accepted for course credit is likely to affect that. Second, AU’s General Education Program is not simply a list of courses, but also an overall program with learning outcomes that faculty, teaching across the program, strive to achieve. A General Education course is more than just disciplinary content, but also a course that includes the promotion of such intellectual capacities as critical thinking and ethical awareness. The Eagle’s writers should think twice before encouraging students in a course of action that would lead to their avoidance of important opportunities to acquire those capacities.
Patrick Thaddeus Jackson
Director, General Education Program
97 Comments
From a Familty of Veterans
Nov 19 at 1:34 AM
Daniel Rogers- thank you.
SIS Student
Nov 19 at 3:09 AM
Carmen, Sarah, Erika, and Daniel,
Thank you all so much for writing eloquently, respectfully, and convincingly. The WRC is an important issue, and I fully support it’s creation, and it’s nice to see AU students and leaders rise above the petty comments from WRC’s opponents and once again outline the importance of its creation.
In particular, Erika, thank you for sharing your personal story. I know it’s hard, but I appreciate you doing it; stories like yours are exactly why we need a WRC. Thanks for speaking out.
Daniel, I am so glad that you made the point you did. Support for special communities isn’t finite. I see no reason why AU couldn’t support promote resources for women and for veterans. Thank you for your service, and thank you for your letter.
Alex Knepper
Nov 19 at 3:34 AM
Erica, stop lying about the arguments that I made.
First of all, the argument that I made against a Women’s Resource Center was not that there are more women at AU. It’s that men simply aren’t going to college anymore. It is men, not women, who need academic attention—women outnumber men on college campuses, 3:2, go to law school in greater numbers than men, etc., thus, no academic need for a women’s resource center. Now, if you want to make a case for a “resource center” to learn more about “women’s” issues, fine. But that only begs the question: why don’t women, but not Hispanics, blacks, the poor, the disabled, etc., get a resource center? Why do we live in such a helpless culture that we need some new bureaucracy for every grievance, real or perceived, that exists?
The argument I made against the pay gap was not that “women make more than men in some professions.” Rather, I completely deconstructed the methodology behind it—something that you completely ignored in the name of upholding your religious dogma.
And yeah, feminism is a dirty word. It’s 2009, not 1970. We’ve seen the results of the feminist religion, and they’re not good for our young men. Unless you like the fact that women outnumber men on college campuses 3:2. If that doesn’t concern you—and I know it doesn’t—then I can know that your real goal is clearly not equality—it’s to beat the men.
Alex Knepper
Nov 19 at 3:38 AM
A conversation I just had with a friend:
Her: “Why are we getting a Women’s Resource Center?”
Me: “I don’t know. The feminists say it’s a resource for women to learn about women’s issues.”
Her: “I don’t know. I think I know all about myself well enough.”
Me: “But what if you get raped?”
Her: “Isn’t there a crisis center?”
Me: “But shouldn’t you be around women’s things, right? Like, supportive things?”
Her: “What, like a teddy bear?”
Me: “No, like, wouldn’t it traumatize you to tell your story over and over to a bureaucracy?”
Her: “But isn’t the Women’s Resource Center a bureaucracy?”
You goddamn feminists are confusing all the normal women on campus.
Alex Knepper
Nov 19 at 3:39 AM
***ATTENTION: ALL OF YOU WHO SUBSCRIBE TO THE FEMINIST RELIGION***
Since you ladies see women as nothing but targets for rape, why don’t you support concealed-carry laws so that women can defend themselves against aggression?
annoyed
Nov 19 at 7:40 AM
oh alex, give it up already. you were out played on this one.
AJ, is that you?
Nov 19 at 9:56 AM
hey… any of the upperclassmen remember the hysterical rantings of AJ Bruno?
because it sure seems like instead of leaving, he changed his name to Alex Knepper.
Anonymous
Nov 19 at 10:21 AM
Some thoughts:
- Women organized and said they wanted a resource center, and then they ran a concentrated and multi-faceted campaign for 5+ years to achieve that end goal. The creation of the WRC is a grassroots political victory and nothing else(which there’s nothing wrong with)
- The creation of this center does not represent a concrete and genuine desire that AU necessarily wants to help women; it does represent a concession that AU could no longer refuse the WRC in light of increasingly effective lobbying from the elements of the campus community, especially and most vocally, WI
- Unfortunately Alex, in this battle, you lost. Your tactics are arguably inefficient (I don’t really feel one way or the other for them, to be honest) but the bottom line is, the WRC is budgeted, and it isn’t going away. It’s fine to continue your campaign against the WRC, but be advised that you’re going up against a group that is more experienced, more influential, more passionate, and most importantly, more numerous than you.
Christie
Nov 19 at 10:26 AM
Alex-
As Erica so eloquently pointed out, it seems you feel threatened by strong and smart women. I am proud to be a feminist and glad that your sexist opinions are held by a minority of students on campus. Per the comments above, you seem to be alone on this one.
K
Nov 19 at 10:41 AM
Alex, you have got to be kidding me…. for lack of a better term and as a person who subscribes to an equalist perspective myself… man up. You are outplayed and outwitted on this issue.
Emily
Nov 19 at 11:01 AM
Carmen, Erica, Daniel, and Sarah:
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Very well said, well informed, and well written. And just in case I didn’t say it enough already: thank you!
snarky
Nov 19 at 11:03 AM
I think a Teddy Bear Resource Center is the greatest idea, ever!
Really
Nov 19 at 11:16 AM
Sarah,
Learn to take a joke. Stop being offended for no real reason.
And, guess what, people can heart other people feeling. waa waa waa.
You’re in college.
CAS Student
Nov 19 at 11:22 AM
“Since you ladies see women as nothing but targets for rape, why don’t you support concealed-carry laws so that women can defend themselves against aggression?”
In order to use concealed firearms effectively takes hours of practice. Most people wouldn’t probably devote themselves to the practice necessarily in order to draw their weapons quickly in a time of crisis. I think the chance of being disarmed by an assailant is pretty high if someone is unable to draw or fire a weapon. Most people would be better off without weapons. For all your talk about concealed weapons, Alex Knepper, I can’t imagine you shooting or firing a gun.
Alex Knepper does seem threatened by strong and eloquent women. After all, most of the literature were written by men. Knepper hates all things feminine. He sees the WRC as a reflection of himself. Unfortunately for him, he does not like what he sees.
Becka
Nov 19 at 12:00 PM
Alex - Feminist Religion? Seriously? “You goddamn feminists are confusing all the normal women on campus”? What is wrong with you? Feminism is not a religion, it is a political movement. And yes, I know your using “religion” is a way to scare us all into thinking Feminists are taking over, but let me be clear:
I am a feminist, dear Eagle Readers, and:
1. I am not trying to convert you to any religion.
2. I do not inherently believe all men are evil; or that women are better than men
3. I can listen to reason. THIS is not reason. This is ridiculous.
Liz
Nov 19 at 3:03 PM
Alex,
Your insensitive, petulant rant against Erica, a survivor of sexual assault who was brave enough to share her story, only reinforces in my mind the necessity of a WRC. If that is what survivors are going to encounter when they tell their stories (and make very good points, by the way), then they definitely need a WRC to help them navigate situations with abrasive, uncaring individuals like yourself. Erica’s arguments were logical, fact-based, and generally avoided the ranting, raving and cherry-picking of facts that characterizes your columns.
As for Conceal and Carry, first of all, feminists are not one massive group with one collective mind. There are a variety of opinions about it among women and men (yes, Alex, men are feminists too!) who call themselves feminists. As for me, I worry that a concealed carry law will have exactly the opposite effect you envision. Do we really need to make it easier for potential rapists to be carrying a firearm? No. Will a woman who is date raped using GHB, other drugs, or alcohol (the most common date rape drug), find a firearm concealed in her purse to be useful? No. Most rapes aren’t stranger rapes where you are attacked in a dark alley and can use your gun to get away. It’s often an acquaintance, boyfriend, husband, friend, or coworker. In short, someone you feel comfortable with, and wouldn’t think you’d need to conceal a weapon on your person to be around them.
I just want to clarify something else for Eagle readers (as I am sure there’s no way Alex will be convinced, no matter how many logical, passionate, smart, dedicated women and men declare their support for the WRC). Speaking to the WRC if you are sexually assaulted, WILL NOT be the same thing as re-victimizing yourself over and over within the AU bureaucracy. The WRC is a place where care and advocacy for the survivor will be centralized; the staff can help you to navigate legal processes, medical attention, counseling and other psychological and emotional services. You will not have to constantly re-tell your story and re-victimize yourself to get all the services you need (as is currently the case). Instead, you’ll have support, an advocate, and guidance (should you chose to seek it) from the WRC.
Also, feminism isn’t good “for our young men?” Are you kidding me? You’re telling me that empowered women, who are able to get an education, leave the home, hold jobs, and stand firmly on their own two feet aren’t good for men too? So what, we’re supposed to shove women back into second-class citizenship because “our young men” feel threatened by the strides being made by strong women?
Alex, may I remind you that AU currently has a GLBTA Resource Center, an Office of Multicultural Affairs, an Office of Disability Support Services, and we are creating a Veterans Resource Center and an WRC. As Daniel so eloquently pointed out in his letter, these services and resources are not mutually exclusive; at AU we can support and provide resources for a variety of marginalized groups with issues that are of particular concern to them.
I’m personally proud to go to a university that offers such services to a wide range of students, staff, faculty, and alumni of different backgrounds, needs, and with different concerns and interests.
And I am damn proud to call myself a feminist. By the looks of the comments on the Eagle this past week, the WRC is going to be opening with the support of a broad cross-section of the campus community, and I couldn’t be happier. And you know what Alex? You’ll be welcome there, too.
Trif
Nov 19 at 4:14 PM
To all you feminists out there: I applaud you and join you. It takes a lot of courage to stand up and fight against those who are quite simply uneducated. Not only do we have people like Alex to spew ridiculous garbage but we sadly find other sisters who have failed to educate themselves as well and have willingly given up their rights as women.
To be a feminist is an honor, one that signifies you are a soldier of equality who fights not just for oneself but for our sisters, mothers, daughters and friends. Most of the uneducated would not know that feminists also include men who fight for equality for all. The uneducated would not know that to be a feminist has nothing to do with man-hating, the “beating down” of men, or the attempt to become dominant over men though the above has been done to women since the beginning of human existence and continues to take place today in various ways.
Quite frankly, it takes a real man to become educated about the rights of women and the reality of what is deemed as “feminist religious dogma.” Alex and other little boys won’t understand equality. They think that because more women attend college or that some women might make more than some men (if that’s even true) that all of a sudden women have achieved equality and are now the oppressors towards men. How sad it is to make feminists out to be the enemy when the greatest enemy of all has been the uneducated boys and girls out there; those who fail to see their arrogance and ignorance has led to the oppression of so many for so long.
I would love to hear the definition of a normal female. I guess to be normal means I accept male dominance and do not question his rule and place. If I’m told we do not need a Woman’s Resource Center, then I am expected to obey and believe the venom coming from the mouths of little boys. I guess to be normal, I am to believe that I am the one at fault when raped or that I even somehow took advantage of the man who raped me. I guess to be normal, I am to believe and understand that I have a specific place in this world and it is solely to support a man emotionally and domestically who is to become my husband and master. I guess to be normal, my greatest contribution I could ever give is bearing children for this world and for my master. I guess to be normal is to accept a fate which I had no say in but I must follow, obey, and do not question on. I guess to be normal I must give up my intellect, my freedom, my body, my rights, and all other facets that have to do with myself.
Well, then I REFUSE to be normal. Instead, I would rather believe that one of the biggest things missing from the Constitution of the United States is this: All Men AND WOMEN are Created Equal. I refuse to be a victim of male ignorance and chauvinism. I refuse to be a slave and give up all that I am for a man to claim his dominance over me. I refuse to believe in what the little boys want me to believe: that I should feel guilty for wanting equal rights and pay or that I should want a woman’s resource center so that I may continue to rise above out of this ditch that I was thrown in.
Vilify me, call me a bitch, declare that I am a man-hater, and let the list go on, BUT I WILL NOT BOW DOWN TO THE LIES OR SURRENDER MY RIGHTS SO THAT LITTLE BOYS CAN CLAIM POWER AND DOMINANCE OVER HALF OF THE POPULATION.
To be a feminist is to want equal rights for all. I am proud to know of men and women in this world who fight for equality for all. I applaud you and thank you for all that you stand for.
Christopher Conway
Nov 19 at 4:20 PM
I’m glad there are men’s rights activists to fight for me - I didn’t even realize that I was being oppressed by feminism, god forbid me! Who knows what damage their religion could have done to me had Alex Knepper not opened my eyes?
Damn it feels good to have privilege.
Jane Fields
Nov 19 at 6:30 PM
Ever think that more women need college degrees to even hope for an equal footing with men?
I’m sure you would like to believe that the ratio is due to policies that don’t allow white privileged men into colleges around the nation, but in reality women go to college out of necessity among other things.
I acknowledge that things are getting better. That’s because women are going to college and empowering themselves to succeed then building a support system like WRC. Not waiting for men to realize the error of their ways and fix things for us.
Jessica Rogers
Nov 19 at 10:04 PM
Alex Knepper, you are a total joke. Maybe if you had respect for other people, other people would have respect for you. I really don’t understand why The Eagle allows you to continue publishing your bullshit. You make the entire paper look bad.
Alex Knepper
Nov 19 at 11:07 PM
Is there like, some massive organized feminist campaign against me now? It’s an honor and a privilege.
“Your insensitive, petulant rant against Erica, a survivor of sexual assault who was brave enough to share her story”
So, what, because she was sexually assaulted, I’m supposed to never disagree with her? I have more respect for her as a human being than that.
Not very much of America is rich, white, male, heterosexual, and Christian. By such an insane definition, only about 2% of America is not marginalized. That literally makes no sense: if you’re part of a definition that falls under 98% of the population, you cannot be marginalized.
Either narrow your definition or stop playing language games.
Alex Knepper
Nov 19 at 11:15 PM
I mean, do you people realize that it is not the 70’s?
Feminism is D-E-D dead. NOBODY outside of college campuses and feminist political organizations takes feminism seriously. NOBODY. To millions of American women, feminism looks a lot more like Kay Bailey Hutchison (long-serving female senator taking on an entrenched male governor) and Sarah Palin (five children, bestselling author, former governor who busted male corruption in both parties) than Carol Gilligan, Andrea Dworkin, and the Victim Industry.
Trif, blabbering about “sisterhood” and saying that America’s standard of femininity supports rape and women as child-bearing machines—you’re fighting mythical demons. Who actually believes these things about women? And don’t talk about “structural” or “institutional” sexism. Structures don’t discriminate. People do.
These comments above, dear lurkers, are statements of faith, not of empirical evidence. Even when women catch up to men and even surpass them, you get insanity like Jane’s utterly brilliant—brilliant in its convoluted logic, I mean; it’s a work of art in many ways—“Women are only getting college degrees because they have to work harder to keep up with men!”—
I mean, this is nuts! It is unfalsifiable nonsense, it’s faith-based—that’s why feminism is a religion.
You don’t want women to be equal. You want women to be victims because you like being victims. It means you can get “involved” and “speak out” and “use your voice.” You’re having an angsty post-adolescent phase in which you’re angry that you’re just like everyone else.
Example: Instead of celebrating the fact that women are doing so well in academia, you claim it’s because they need to beat back men. It’s just insane! And normal people know that.
Real women—and you people are NOT real women, but little fembots who spout pre-canned dogma—are out there making a name for themselves.
The battle for women’s equality is over. Women won every battle they can win (memo to Carmen Rios: rape will never end. There will always be savages. The best we can hope for is preventive methods, like concealed-carry). They aren’t second-class citizens anymore. The world has moved on; it’s time that you move on with it.
Alex Knepper
Nov 19 at 11:21 PM
(1) I applaud all of you who are willing to use their real names. No matter how much I disagree with you, that’s something not everyone will do.
(2) You people speaking up against concealed-carry prove that you don’t want to stop rape.
You like it when women are victims, so you can rant about how women are oppressed.
I want to stop rape by empowering women—with real force to fight back against savages.
If concealed carry would stop even one rape, you should support it. But you don’t. You hate guns more than you love a woman’s right to fight back.
(3) Jane says that “men” need to see the error of their ways. Oops! Better remember to cover your tracks like these other ladies, ma’am. Trif says that “little boys” are trying to oppress her.
(4) Why do you feminists, who love strong women, hate Sarah Palin, who is a mother of five, the former governor of a state, acquired more votes than any other women in history on a national level, and a corruption-buster—against corrupt men (!) in both parties in Alaska?
It’s a rhetorical question. You hate her because she’s not a leftist. Leftism comes before women.
Trif
Nov 20 at 1:03 AM
You don’t seem to understand some things. You seem to think that feminism is dead and has no place because it’s 2009 and not 1970 but there is still a lot of crap out there against females. It’s not faith-based and I can’t understand why you think we would like to be victims. Everything from having celebrities and models define to society what we are to look like and how we should dress to being called “sweetheart” at work as if we are something created to serve without a brain.
You don’t get it. You just don’t seem to get it. You sputter about and talk as if all of us feminists are out there to attack the male species but perhaps because you are not a female you can’t seem to see things from our point of view. For the record, I don’t hate men. Most of us don’t. I am happily engaged to a man who sees me as an equal. Equality, by the way, is feminism and until we achieve that is a reason for why feminism still exists. It exists in government, medicine, science, academia, on-campus, off-campus, in the home, in business, etc. You think it only exists on campuses? It’s everywhere because sexism is still everywhere.
I don’t like Sarah Palin because her beliefs do not coincide with mine. I do not like abortion but I feel that there are certain reasons for why a woman should have one. I am all for same-sex marriages and rights. She is not. I find fault with her limited government approach but her endless government control of social issues. I find her desire to mix church and state to be wrong and unconstitutional. I find her to be hypocritical. Her daughter has a child out of wedlock but she doesn’t value birth control and sexual education but she doesn’t agree with abortion either. I admire her being a female and getting involved in politics even if I disagree with her. I will even acknowledge that she has faced plenty of sexism throughout everything as well. There are, however unfortunate, huge differences between her and someone like me though with regards to how we think and what we see.
The battle for woman’s equality has not ended which is why there are still feminists like me out there. Look deeper into society and if you can’t even see it here in the United States, then look in other countries. Although rape may never seize to exist, you fail to see the mindset behind it. You fail to see how many people put the fault and blame on the victim in a sexual assault. “She was drunk, she wore sexy clothing, she flirted with him, etc.” These are things that we hear as excuses for why women are victims of forced sex. The truth is that rape is never the victim’s fault regardless of how she dressed or how much she drank. In fact, women in full veils are still raped so if dressing sexy is supposed to be the catalyst then how are women more than fully clothed raped? We won’t even get into the fact that men are also raped though not as often perhaps as women are.
How is it that you think women no longer need to fight for equality? You mention equality in 40 professions. Should that even be true, what about the rest of the professions? There may be more women in college but how does that show that there is now equality especially when we still face the same problems in the workforce, the home, and elsewhere? There’s a whole mindset here that you are ignoring. Just a little example: if a woman is aggressive on a project and takes the lead, she’s called a bitch. A man doing the same thing is called a leader and simply being assertive. Women are often expected to work full time, take care of children and then handle most if not all the chores within the household. Where’s the equality in that? I wanted to play football in high school during my junior year and I was forced to take a physical test that none of the boys were forced to take. The test was not only a factor to get in but I had to receive the ok from three different people such as doctors and school officials in order to be on the team. I was refused entrance on the team my junior year but fought again for my senior year of which then I was finally able to win the approval to be on the team becoming the first and only female to ever even try to play on the high school football team. Is it fair that I had to take a special test and receive special approval just so I could play a sport that I loved? These little things are examples of sexism and how it’s still prevalent today.
I do not hate you nor do I think many of us on here do. I actually pity you because you can’t see the truth of it all. You haven’t been able to critically think of what you are saying or at least what you are seeing to make a more thoughtful case for yourself. You represent what so many of us feminists are frustrated at: people who fail to see the truth and who lack the compassion to even care what we females go through. Instead, we are seen as victims crying “poor me” who only yearn for attention and a battle to fight. Ask yourself the truth on whether you even value a woman’s opinion as opposed to a male’s. Ask yourself if you have ever looked at a female and noticed her worth measured by her intellect and strength as opposed to how cute she looked or how big her boobs were. Have you ever put the blame on the female who was a victim of rape? Have you ever told yourself that women should not do this and women should not do that? Do you expect the woman you marry in life to do your laundry, make your meals, give you children, clean your messes, wash the dishes, etc?
Alex, sexism is all around and because sexism is all around is a reason for why feminism is and always will be around. The standards for men are different than the standards for women and that in itself is a problem. Equality serves men as much as it serves women as well. When boys can play with barbie dolls and not have their “manhood” compromised, when men can be nurses without having a stigma attached, when men can show compassion and cry without being told they are weak, that is when we can all truly achieve equality. When a girl can play football because she likes to play the game, when saying “no” to sex is enough of a reason for it to not take place, when a woman can work and share the duties of housework and caring for children with the man that helped her to make them, all these cannot take place until equality is reached.
Open your eyes and look at the truth around you. Instead of fighting women who seek equality, aka feminists, why not join us so that equality can really take place? And showing your support for women to carry concealed weapons is not going to achieve the results you think. You can’t put a gun to someone’s head who treats you as insignificant and thinks of you only as someone who brings the coffee. You can’t put a gun to a man’s head to make him do the dishes. Threatening someone with a gun is not going to change the mindset s/he may have regarding women. What needs to change is the thought processes, or lack there of, of institutions like society which are made up of people. Yes, people do discriminate but people make up the fundamental structures of institutions and so it is also the institutions themselves that harbor the sexist attitudes out there.
Perhaps you should ask yourself questions like this: Is what I am doing now, would a woman be treated and seen differently if she was in the same situation? To really understand, you have to put yourself in another point of view. Play the devil’s advocate with yourself. Listen to the stories of women who have gone through things you will never go through simply because you are a dude. I’ve heard men say that men rank higher than women because they are more evolved. More evolved!!! That’s a joke, right? If you can’t see that as sexism and blunt dominance over women then perhaps there’s no hope for you. When you are seen as a piece of meat instead of someone full of ambitions, intelligence, and strength, that’s sexism.
Try having an actual conversation with a feminist, go to lectures, read literature, do whatever you have to do to truly understand things from a woman or a feminist’s point of view. You may be enlightened as to the reality that’s out there in this world. Perhaps you should ask a woman’s studies professor to help you see things a little differently.
Liz
Nov 20 at 1:19 AM
“If you’re part of a definition that falls under 98% of the population, you cannot be marginalized”
Yes, Alex, because never in the history of the world or of the US have we ever seen the minority marginalize and subjugate the majority.
Oh, please.
Your obsession with conceal and carry laws is misguided and off-base. Please tell me how a gun is going to stop date-rape or acquaintance rape or spousal rape? Honestly, Alex.
Alex, the reason I’m not wild about Sarah Palin has nothing to do with her not being leftist. There are plenty of Republican women with whom I disagree but respect nonetheless (a concept you have clearly not grasped yet). I don’t like her because she’s incompetent, highly unqualified to the Vice-President, and she caters to the lowest common denominator. She finger-points, and name-calls because she can’t stand on her own merits.
I know we’re going to disagree on this, and that’s fine, but I would venture to guess you weren’t too fond of Hilary Clinton, and I would also venture to guess it had something to do with her feminism and leftism.
And, Alex, “Real women—and you people are NOT real women, but little fembots who spout pre-canned dogma.” When you say things that that you just prove every feminist on here who is “conspiring again you” right. You think I’m a fembot for supporting the creation of a WRC? You just reinforce my opinion that you’re petulant, spoiled, whiny, and seem to have real issues accepting that there could possibly be intelligent people who disagree with you.
Sarah Brown
Nov 20 at 1:41 AM
Alex,
I still have not received your reply to my invitation to discuss the Women’s Resource Center with you. I’d be happy to discuss feminism with you as well provided you can keep your tone respectful and not refer to feminists as “you people” and “fembots.” I hope you will agree to have a dialogue about this.
Best,
Sarah Brown
Director of Women’s Initiative
Trif
Nov 20 at 1:58 AM
Alex, I encourage you to take up the invitation by Ms. Brown. Bring some friends, too. The worst thing that will happen is nothing. The best thing that will happen is that you see things from a whole new perspective.
people
Nov 20 at 1:59 AM
“You people” is usually followed by a well-informed, non-sweeping statement
Alex Knepper
Nov 20 at 3:05 AM
Trif, you wanna talk double-standards? You wanna whine about being called “sweetheart”? Let’s go, babe.
How about the treatment of men in divorce court?
How about the bitter mothers that don’t let their fathers see their own children?
How about the women who emotionally abuse their boyfriends? They’re “sticking up for themselves,” while men are abusive.
Why is there a massive public campaign against breast cancer, while there is no campaign for men’s health?—Even though women statistically live seven years longer than men, on average?
Why don’t women have to register for the draft?
Why do we allow boys’ sports teams to get cut under Title IX because no one wants to watch girls’ football or girls’ wrestling?
Why are men portrayed like lazy bums in movies and TV shows and nobody cares?
Why are men always presumed guilty when accused of rape, abuse, battery, or harassment against women?
Why is it that when men beat out women statistically, it’s sexism, but when women beat out men, it’s “girl power” or “women being strong”?
Why is it that women can get away with putting on stuff like “The Vagina Monologues” talking about “good rape”? Imagine if men put on a show called “The Penis Monologues” where men talked about “good rape” with a thirteen-year-old.
DOUBLE-STANDARDS ARE EVERYWHERE. THEY AFFECT EVERYONE. You think you’re so special, but you’re not. You can be a victim, or you can be self-empowered. Choose the latter, please.
Also, to this: “Do you expect the woman you marry in life to do your laundry, make your meals, give you children, clean your messes, wash the dishes, etc?” Er, I’m gay, so, no, I don’t expect that. The man I marry—marry, one day! Cross your fingers—will hopefully split those responsibilities with me.
Alex Knepper
Nov 20 at 3:07 AM
“Yes, Alex, because never in the history of the world or of the US have we ever seen the minority marginalize and subjugate the majority.”
Why should a white heterosexual male have to apologize for who he naturally is? More double-standards against people who aren’t like you. And if he’s Christian, so what? And if he’s rich, good on him for being successful.
Even Gloria Steinem got married, bud.
Alex Knepper
Nov 20 at 3:09 AM
“I know we’re going to disagree on this, and that’s fine, but I would venture to guess you weren’t too fond of Hilary Clinton, and I would also venture to guess it had something to do with her feminism and leftism.”
Funny how such a feminist rode her husband’s coattails to the Senate…
Alex Knepper
Nov 20 at 3:11 AM
“I’ve heard men say that men rank higher than women because they are more evolved. More evolved!!! That’s a joke, right? If you can’t see that as sexism and blunt dominance over women then perhaps there’s no hope for you. When you are seen as a piece of meat instead of someone full of ambitions, intelligence, and strength, that’s sexism. “
Um, why don’t you talk to my uncle, who spent agonizing months having to fight to see his children because his bitch of an ex-wife wouldn’t let him visit?
Divorce courts always side with women, because feminists have successfully cast men as the bad guys.
I remember him lamenting to my mom, “I can’t believe your husband doesn’t take advantage of how generous you are about visitation. I had to spend months to fight to see my boy.” Some male privilege.
Poor Knepper
Nov 20 at 3:43 AM
Everyone please give Alex Knepper a break.
He probably was the unintended union of a dominant mother and a submissive father. Alex is the reason why I support abortion rights and contraceptives for women. This poor child probably wants to angrily spite his mother by condemning any form of rights for women and gays.
Please give Knepper a break. He is only human. I know how difficult it is for most people to view Alex as human. I admit that I had some difficulty in calling Alex a human being. Yet despite the monster he seems to be on the outside, please know that he is a timid and fearful gay boy fearful of modernity and change. Alex needs a good dose of self confidence.
Alex would you like to go shopping together someday and go look at cute boys? Hopefully, shopping will ease your mind off your hatred of women.
Poor Knepper
Nov 20 at 3:46 AM
I forgot Alex, we could also chill at gay dance clubs so we can hang out with your people. Trust me Alex, it will be good for you. The experience will reduce the hurt and pain you are feeling on the inside.
publicity whore
Nov 20 at 9:33 AM
alex knepper will never actually talk to sarah about this, unless there are cameras and reporters there.
it’s surprising the eagle doesn’t charge him ad space for all the free publicity this buys him with the bigots that agree with his bullshit.
Alex Knepper
Nov 20 at 10:10 AM
Publicity whore! What do I say now? Do I deny that I like to have attention surrounding me and my ideas?—
Anyway, I just sent Sarah a Facebook message about meeting last night, so I’m sad to say that I can’t actually confirm your vitriol—which I usually like to do.
Bill
Nov 20 at 10:28 AM
Not particularly sure why WI and co. continue to legitimize Alex’s views when really what you want to be doing is marginalizing them. Why give him a forum to debate you? Silly.
Bill
Nov 20 at 10:29 AM
Legitimize by continuing to respond to is what I should have added.
Sarah
Nov 20 at 11:32 AM
Bill,
It’s not a legitimation. Clearly Alex and I, and many men and women in Women’s Initiative, have very very different views on… well, almost everything. But dialogue is a respectful way for people to learn reasons for views different from their own. I’m hoping that Alex will learn something about why so many people want a Women’s Resource Center and why feminism is neither dead nor evil. My guess is he’s hoping I learn something about what he thinks. But it’s definitely a better way to do it than posting nasty comments in an online forum.
Marc
Nov 20 at 12:24 PM
I feel like both sides would do much better if they weren’t so eager for the other person to “learn something.” That sort of condescending attitude doesn’t really help anyone.
One of the problems here, as it often is at AU, is that people are more willing to speak than listen. There are valid arguments from Alex about culture in the US, and valid arguments from the many who support WI and the WRC. Personally, I think that the WRC is a good addition to campus.
That being said, I don’t dismiss Alex as someone who’s uninformed or outright wrong. He listed quite a few issues where men are discriminated against in our culture and I have a feeling that his list of concerns are easily dismissed with a wave of the hand and saying “women suffer through more.”
One of the great resources that the WRC can offer is a dialogue that is already happening. I fear that neither side is really looking to benefit from that and is more interested in being “right.” Good luck trying to prove that.
Carmen
Nov 20 at 4:37 PM
“The battle for women’s equality is over. Women won every battle they can win (memo to Carmen Rios: rape will never end. There will always be savages. The best we can hope for is preventive methods, like concealed-carry). They aren’t second-class citizens anymore. The world has moved on; it’s time that you move on with it.”
The battle against rape isn’t a battle against a natural being, like a “savage.” It isn’t a campaign against genetic disorders or “abnormal” physiology. The battle against rape is a battle against systematic social control mechanisms that victimize women, the male sense of entitlement to female bodies and feminine beings, and the institutions in our culture that condone woman-hating, woman-hurting, and the devaluing of femininity. Women do not carry concealed weapons to celebrate the end of rape culture- they walk down the street, alone, and safe, to celebrate the end of rape culture.
Wake up, Knepper. Rape isn’t sex. It’s domination, control, and masculinity at its most violent. And I’m not going to allow you to write it off as some ‘natural’ thing that men sometimes do when they’re ‘bad.’
Trif
Nov 20 at 5:02 PM
Wow. I spent a lot of time just writing something and it’s not showing up. How upsetting!
Alex, I had a lot of stuff to say in response to what you had said. Unfortunately, I am not going to spend the time to retype all that I had to say. However, I wish to retell you this:
You are fighting against the wrong people. The problems that face some men today are not a reason to fight against women. Negating the issues that women face is not going to right the wrong that some men face. Feminists are not the enemy that you would like to believe. For someone who is gay as well, you are fighting the wrong people because many feminists are helping to fight for equality for the GLBT community.
Ugh, I’m so pissed all I had to say is not showing up. Should you like to know what I had to say (and some of it was agreeing with some of your points) then I am willing to extend a hand by means of some form of contact info so to further discuss this issue. I would appreciate it if you refer to me as Nikki or Trif as that is my name, not babe.
I applaud you for at least talking or writing about the problem as that is the first way we can only hope to acknowledge and solve a problem. I totally support your right to marry the man of your life and hope to see the day when same-sex marriage is allowed just like any other marriage.
JJ
Nov 20 at 10:46 PM
Spot on Alex. And you are right Feminism is dead. Also if the best you get thrown back at you is that you are sexist or that your Mom should have gotten an abortion, your taking the upper hand.
Alex Knepper
Nov 20 at 11:19 PM
No, Trif, we are not on the same side.
Feminists and the gay left see themselves as allied against some kind of “construction of masculinity” fostered by the “patriarchy.”
I like being a man. I like having masculine, classical virtues. I like hanging out with other guys and talking about politics or philosophy or history or current events. The only thing that makes me different from any other man is my sexual orientation.
I am also a classical liberal. I do not support hate crimes bills, I do not support ENDA, I do not support ramming same-sex marriage through the courts. I want it decided through the legislature, like it’s supposed to be done, according to our Constitution, which I believe is a beautiful and logical document.
I want same-sex marriage to come about because the culture is ready for it. And I want the culture to be ready for it for the right reasons: the understanding that gay people are just like anyone else. We aren’t a political movement, an ideology, or a lifestyle. Feminists and the gay left only serve to marginalize that.
Alex Knepper
Nov 20 at 11:28 PM
Carmen, what the hell happened to you, anyway? You were a DLC-style, mainstream Democrat before you got radicalized by the campus culture. I was even able to respectfully engage you on the merits of neoconservative foreign policy.
Regardless, let’s go point by point here:
“The battle against rape isn’t a battle against a natural being, like a “savage.” It isn’t a campaign against genetic disorders or “abnormal” physiology.”
Yes and no. What I meant by savage was behavior. The behavior of a rapist is savage, barbaric, primitive. But you are right insofar as it has nothing to do with a disorder or physiology. I am greatly disturbed by the use of the insanity defense in such instances.
“The battle against rape is a battle against systematic social control mechanisms that victimize women, the male sense of entitlement to female bodies and feminine beings, and the institutions in our culture that condone woman-hating, woman-hurting, and the devaluing of femininity.”
The “male” sense of entitlement to female bodies? Do you see why people call you a man-hater?
“Systems” do not rape. “Systems” do not discriminate. People rape. People discriminate.
You feminists sat by and watched Sarah Palin be subject to the most vicious smear campaign by the left. Your little goddesses Eve Ensler and Gloria Steinem smear her by saying she’s not a real woman, lie about her record (the whole “rape kit” myth), attack her children, and—hey!—are currently silent as they put a sexy picture of her on Newsweek’s cover for an ostensibly serious piece. And in the article, they show a picture of a Palin doll dressed up like a sexy schoolgirl. Would they ever do that to Obama? And yet—and yet—you feminists are silent!
Why? Because leftist ideology comes before women!
“Women do not carry concealed weapons to celebrate the end of rape culture- they walk down the street, alone, and safe, to celebrate the end of rape culture.”
No, not the end of “rape culture.” But if concealed-carry could stop even one woman from being raped, why would you oppose it?
The answer is obvious, of course: leftist ideology comes before the safety of women. You do not care about women’s safety. You care about maintaining your own ideological purity in front of your feminist sisters.
“Wake up, Knepper. Rape isn’t sex. It’s domination, control, and masculinity at its most violent. And I’m not going to allow you to write it off as some ‘natural’ thing that men sometimes do when they’re ‘bad.’”
Um, when did I write it off? I’ve been going on for a week about how it’s a savage, barbaric, inhuman act. But I’m also a realist, and understand that in a world of six billion people, it’s not going to ever completely stop. You can’t declare war on a tactic—isn’t that what you leftists are always harping about in the war on terror?
Alex Knepper
Nov 20 at 11:30 PM
Any of you ladies plan on responding to my list of anti-male discrimination?
Kelly Thomas
Nov 21 at 1:36 AM
Dear Alex,
How dare you personally attack these individuals. Though there are many comments on this thread that I disagree with, I am offended that you would attack Carmen for any changes or developments she has made throughout her college career. I hope that everyone is able to grow into free-thinking individuals in this unique time in our lives.
Furthermore, I feel personally attacked when you refer to individuals as “you feminists”. If I perceive your tone correct, you have resorted to name-calling which never accomplishes anything. I am personally offended that you would suggest that “us feminists” are grouped together. We are individuals with different beliefs of what needs to be accomplished in the world to achieve one common goal: equality.
Thank you for your time,
Kelly
Carmen
Nov 21 at 1:56 AM
1. Men are perpetrators of rape 99 percent of the time. Women are most frequently the survivors of sexual violence. It is not man-hating to realize that men play a very important role in eradicating rape, and that is the role of restructuring cultural guidelines of masculinity, which are constructed through the “guy” experience you seem to cherish. There is nothing about your biological sex that determines what you enjoy doing or being. There is no reason rape should be excused on the grounds that you are a “realist.” Change is possible, and even small progress in reducing and eradicating rape is considerable progress for humankind.
“Systems” do not rape. “Systems” do not discriminate. People rape. People discriminate.
2. Institutions allow rape. Institutions encourage discrimination. People allow rape. People discriminate. People create those institutions.
3. I stand up for Palin every time she is attacked on the basis of her gender, sex, or femininity. I even did this in a televised campaign class. I’m not afraid to stand up for all women regardless of their political views. This is why I’m proud to be a feminist- it encompasses furthering all women. Even if I disagree with her politically, I would never let someone disparage her based on her clothing or otherwise.
4. I do not want a world where women carry guns to keep themselves safe from violations of their basic human rights. I want a world where women have as much a perceived right to walk the sidewalk at night as the attackers we so often forget to blame.
Best,
Carmen
.............
Nov 21 at 2:19 AM
if “carmen” doesn’t hate men, then why does she so often make it a point to change the spelling of her name from “carmEn” to “carmYn”........specifically so the word “men” doesn’t appear in her name…....she would not be satisfied until EVERYTHING associated with men or masculinity is “restructured” (ie: femenized….)
!!!
Nov 21 at 2:23 AM
oh, shh. i jokingly changed the spelling of my name last year. you clearly don’t know me well enough- i very much so do not hate men. also, i definitely have been signing my name with an ‘e’ on all of my eaglestuff, so you should worry about something else.
(also- it’s *feminized.)
xoxo
carmyn
Liz
Nov 21 at 2:35 AM
If you have to resort to taking issue with how Carmen chooses to spell her name, you clearly don’t have any sort of substantive argument to make. Men and women change the way they spell their names all the time. Lots of people swap Y’s and E’s for I’s and vice versa.
Why does everyone think feminism is “man-hating?” I want to live in a world where I am treated equally and evaluated based on my skills, knowledge, personality, and abilities, not my physical body. In what way does that equal man-hating? In what way does being oppose to rape and wishing to fight rape-culture man-hating?
In fact, fighting rape culture, as Carmen so eloquently explained, is about fighting steroetypes of what it means to be a man. It means expanding beyong machismo and masculinity, and embracing the idea that your manliness isn’t tied to your ability to dominate, hurt, control, and overpower. That’s man-affirming, in my opinion. That’s supporting the many men out there who don’t fit into the stereotypes that the media and society have constructed for them, without marginalizing them as “less of man.”
Carmen, you make good points in a respectful way, and agree with you. I love your (Con)sensual campaign, and that you are engaging the people who disagree in an adult, rational way, and I respect you for it, no matter how you spell your name.
Liz
(Lyz?)
Alex Margolis
Nov 21 at 3:17 AM
Well not surprisingly, I happen to agree with Mr. Knepper here. Again, the feminists are playing scientist again.
Carmen: “There is nothing about your biological sex that determines what you enjoy doing or being”
To paraphrase the film Thank You For Smoking: Carmen, are you a geneticist? No? Are you a biologist? No? A psychologist? No? Well then you don’t seem to be in a position to make such a claim do you?
You are simply wrong. Sex determines a hell of a lot of things. In fact, it’s your type of thinking that has ruined people’s lives. People born with mutated genitalia were often operated on and given a vagina instead of a penis because it’s “easier to build a hole than a pole.” Yet, they were male inside but raised as females. It leads to serious psychological problems.
Rape is not excusable but DO NOT try to argue than men and women have no biological behavioral differences. Hijacking science for a political agenda is precisely what creationists have done - and it is despicable.
If you really believe males and females have no biological differences that influence, “what you enjoy doing or being” then you are demonstrating, like creationists, that you are either A, ignorant, or B, only interested in confirming what you want to believe instead of what is actually true.
Alex Knepper
Nov 21 at 3:41 AM
“How dare you personally attack these individuals. Though there are many comments on this thread that I disagree with, I am offended that you would attack Carmen for any changes or developments she has made throughout her college career. I hope that everyone is able to grow into free-thinking individuals in this unique time in our lives.”
Blah blah blah blah blah…
“There is nothing about your biological sex that determines what you enjoy doing or being. There is no reason rape should be excused on the grounds that you are a “realist.” Change is possible, and even small progress in reducing and eradicating rape is considerable progress for humankind.”
So, like, what do you want me to do? I’m not raping anyone. Should I go up to people and ask them if they’re going to rape someone tonight?
“I do not want a world where women carry guns to keep themselves safe from violations of their basic human rights. I want a world where women have as much a perceived right to walk the sidewalk at night as the attackers we so often forget to blame.”
Then you are not practical. This is equivalent to refusing to give someone a flu shot because the flu exists. “The flu shouldn’t exist in the first place! It’s not fair! Why should we have to give ourselves vaccines?!” Or, how about: “Mothers shouldn’t beat their kids! Why should we give kids shelters? It shouldn’t be like this in the first place!”—OK, fine, but let’s take the world as it is, not how you’d like it to be. Guns can help women. Like, a lot.
“Institutions allow rape. Institutions encourage discrimination. People allow rape. People discriminate. People create those institutions.”
What institutions discriminate? Do I allow rape?
Alex Knepper
Nov 21 at 3:45 AM
“It means expanding beyong machismo and masculinity, and embracing the idea that your manliness isn’t tied to your ability to dominate, hurt, control, and overpower. That’s man-affirming, in my opinion.”
This is just utter fantasy. Who is promoting the idea that being a man has to do with hurting people and dominating women? Can someone please give me an example? Do I really have to start making ManBearPig jokes?
“Why does everyone think feminism is “man-hating?” I want to live in a world where I am treated equally and evaluated based on my skills, knowledge, personality, and abilities, not my physical body. In what way does that equal man-hating? In what way does being oppose to rape and wishing to fight rape-culture man-hating?”
Well, I’ve given you examples on this page. Carmen said that “men”—not “some men”—not “certain men” or “a small but dangerous minority of men,” but “men” thin that they have the right to dominate women’s bodies.
That’s pretty deranged and such a ridiculous misreading of our culture that it’s apparent that she lives in some sort of parallel universe where up is down and A is B.
“Hijacking science for a political agenda is precisely what creationists have done - and it is despicable.”
Duh, feminism is a religion.
Alex Knepper
Nov 21 at 3:47 AM
“Carmen, are you a geneticist? No? Are you a biologist? No? A psychologist? No? Well then you don’t seem to be in a position to make such a claim do you?”
This is unfair and a logical fallacy.
Her facts are wrong on their own merits, not because she’s not a geneticist.
You can be hoisted by your own petard here: are you a geneticist? Well, then, who are you to say that men and women have biological differences?
See? Feeling silly now? Stick to ideas, please.
Trif
Nov 21 at 3:52 AM
Yeah, Alex. I had full intentions on answering piece by piece and then all that I had wrote for a long time completely vanished. That’s why I was offering you a better way to communicate so I could give my thoughts again on all that you had said.
I’m actually starting to be amused by you because you have so much hatred towards many women especially those who call themselves feminists but it is so misguided. Why do you group all of us into one category? Oh, I forgot that you include the “gay left.” What exactly are “masculine, classical virtues?” What do you have against women who are fighting for equality? Have you completely lost your ability to be compassionate that you can’t see what many women go through? Are we all perfect, hell no. But you have consistently tried to criminalize us and make us out to be a group of man-hating women who claim to be a victim in a world that you think is more fair and equal than what it really is.
I guess you don’t know my guy friends who believe in some of the same things I believe in including feminism. They are not gay, would identify themselves as being very “masculine,” and we often talk about one of our favorite sports, football, among the other things you have mentioned like politics and philosophy. I don’t hate men and, in fact, I am engaged to a wonderful guy who supports me and supports equality.
If most feminists support a leftist ideology, it’s because the left has a platform we can support. That doesn’t mean we put ideology before women. We dont’ have to because that ideology has a place for women and includes equal rights for all. Referring to Palin, how do you stick up for someone that essentially welcomes sexism into her life? Interestingly enough, there were some feminists who stuck up for her anyways. You probably won’t see it on the news or most places but some of us did stick up for her.
You say you want a culture that accepts same-sex marriage and GLBT people, in general, for the right reasons that gay people are just like everyone else. Feminists just want to be treated fairly and equal like everyone else wants to be too. Your hatred is based on stereotypes of women and feminists. The fact is that many, if not most, women are treated differently than men. Why do you insist on painting this awful picture of feminists who only exist to marginalize anything? I personally have been the target of sexism but that doesn’t mean I hate all men. I also refuse to believe any sexist comments directed towards me because I know I’m better than that.
Here’s a new picture that I’ll paint for you. I’m a feminist who does not hate men, who does not make every women out to be some poor, sappy weakling of a victim, who thinks that women still are trying to fight for equality in so many areas, who believes that no person deserves to be raped and especially blamed in some way for it, who thinks that there are women out there who are actually sexist towards other women and men, who likes to have intelligent conversations, and above all else, who is not afraid of just about anything or anyone.
Maybe you can see that your stereotypical view of a feminist does not apply to every person. Maybe you will one day see the merits of what many of us feminists are talking about. Maybe you won’t.
Here is my wish for you: I hope you one day have a daughter and that you watch her grow to become a wonderful woman who is full of passions, intelligence, and ambitions that will break boundaries put up for her by men who wish to not see her succeed. I hope that through her you see what us “evil feminists” are trying to fight for- equality in every sense, in every area, for every person.
man hating feminists?
Nov 21 at 4:09 AM
for all of the women-hating going on here (i believe that a few days ago, alex told us of us “bitches” to “shut the fuck up,”) it takes a really interesting kind of person to call the women who stand up for themselves man-haters.
and even feminists who are “man hating” don’t hate “men” as in “male people.” they hate how you have conformed to a dominant masculinity that socializes you to value power and teaches you that it is ok to berate women for wanting to be, as rebecca west so eloquently put it, something other than prostitutes or door mats (read: someone you can fuck or someone you can walk all over).
but you would know that if you ever read any feminists other than the few you love to “cite.” i think i’ve seen dworkin, steinem, gilligan, and ensler now. you could at least put in the effort to google “feminism” so you could throw in a new name to bash every now and then.
Alex Knepper
Nov 21 at 4:44 AM
“What exactly are “masculine, classical virtues?”
Self-reliance, personal responsibility, honor, loyalty, integrity, personal development, compassion for the weak—the truly weak, that is—logic, reason. This is quite distinct from maschismo, which I despise.
“What do you have against women who are fighting for equality?”
Nothing at all; this is not what you are fighting for.
“Have you completely lost your ability to be compassionate that you can’t see what many women go through?”
Nope. There are lots of double-standards against women. Most of them are unfair. There are also double-standards against black people, men, gay people—they’re everywhere. It’s part of life. It’s an inconvenience, but not an abomination. It’s something you can learn to live with, if you’re comfortable with yourself.
“Are we all perfect, hell no. But you have consistently tried to criminalize us and make us out to be a group of man-hating women who claim to be a victim in a world that you think is more fair and equal than what it really is.”
What is feminism if not the belief that women are victimized? But there’s simply no evidence that individual women cannot achieve everything that individual men can in today’s society.
“Referring to Palin, how do you stick up for someone that essentially welcomes sexism into her life?”
What does this mean? That she’s “asking for it”?—I don’t understand.
“Feminists just want to be treated fairly and equal like everyone else wants to be too [just like GLBT people].”
Now, if you think that gays as a group have it no better than women, you’re insulting and delusional. When we see an openly gay person as Secretary of State or an openly gay person on the vice-presidential ticket, or receiving half of the delegates in a presidential contest, let’s chat.
“Here is my wish for you: I hope you one day have a daughter and that you watch her grow to become a wonderful woman who is full of passions, intelligence, and ambitions that will break boundaries put up for her by men who wish to not see her succeed.”
Well, I’m not particularly interested in children, but I’d not rule it out. But who are these men? What are these barriers? What a horrid insult, especially when it’s premised on nothing but words.
“for all of the women-hating going on here (i believe that a few days ago, alex told us of us “bitches” to “shut the fuck up,”) it takes a really interesting kind of person to call the women who stand up for themselves man-haters.”
If I called a group of men “bastards” would you call that man-hating? Women act like bitches; men, bastards. That’s the terminology. Awfully touchy for such empowered women.
“they hate how you have conformed to a dominant masculinity that socializes you to value power and teaches you that it is ok to berate women for wanting to be, as rebecca west so eloquently put it, something other than prostitutes or door mats”
So now I want power (which is about the most bizarre thing I’ve ever heard, given my individualist, microscopic-government philosophy) and I want women to be prostitutes. This is getting interesting.
“(read: someone you can fuck or someone you can walk all over). “
Ew, I don’t wanna fuck girls. I’m a fag, bitch.
“but you would know that if you ever read any feminists other than the few you love to “cite.” i think i’ve seen dworkin, steinem, gilligan, and ensler now. you could at least put in the effort to google “feminism” so you could throw in a new name to bash every now and then.”
Yeah, but I like real feminists—classical feminists—like Wollstonecraft, Stanton, Anthony, and, in modern times, Sommers.
I don’t pay much attention to academic feminism today because the lunatics are running the asylum. It’s a bunch of politically correct twaddle, where saying the wrong thing will set off an array of sirens that you can’t hear a word of sense over. Women’s Studies—and, for that matter, Black Studies, “Chicano” Studies, “Native” Studies, Asian Studies, “Queer” Theory—aren’t real academic disciplines; they are history-as-therapy fields in which one works backwards with a conclusion and forces the premises to fit that pre-ordained dogma.
Alex Knepper
Nov 21 at 4:51 AM
Let’s get something straight, though: classical masculinity is as opposed to machismo as modern feminism is, if for different reasons. It’s a perversion of what manhood is about and is in many ways a distortion of real manliness: self-reliance becomes a dog-eat-dog fight, loyalty becomes “brohood,” personal development becomes an aspiration to perpetual adolescence. This is a blight upon our culture and is at the root of the boy crisis in our schools.
For as much as it hates that machismo, modern feminism helped to foster it. (They were by no means alone, of course.)
By successfully taking over academic circles and fostering a climate of political correctness in which we were no longer socially permitted to allow our boys to be boys, the self-esteem movement, multiculturalists, philosophical nihilists, and radical feminists fostered the notion that there was something wrong with the classical notions of manliness handed down to us over the ages. These groups hated them for different reasons—the feminists thought that the culture was fundamentally flawed rather than needing tweaking and so threw the baby out with the bathwater—but united in a successful coalition to assault the West’s virtues from within. Because there has been cultural momentum toward tolerance and we don’t like, as a country, watching people suffer, we were willing to compromise. But we stepped too far, and we have a serious boy crisis on our hands. Our young men are lacking purpose. They can’t read or write, they aren’t going to college—women are kicking their asses. But what do feminists want to do? Keep ignoring it. They don’t want an equilibrium of masculinity and femininity. They want to tear virtuous manliness down.
Alex Knepper
Nov 21 at 4:54 AM
“Bros” would actually be a common enemy of ours. We could definitely find common ground there.
But alas, we’d probably never move beyond step one, because feminists see masculinity as being at the root of such behavior, while I see the absence of masculinity as the problem.
Note to heterosexuals: Classical, virtuous manliness means holding the door for women, paying for the date, treating one’s girlfriend like a queen, and, of course, listening to her as an equal and taking an active interest in her life. Why is this so conspicuously absent in our culture at this point? Well, I’ve already addressed that, actually…
Trif
Nov 21 at 7:44 AM
Everything seems to be pretty black and white for you. I can’t even seem to tell you what I think feminism means to me because you are telling me what it means to me and what it doesn’t. Your views are not set in stone. What you think feminism is is not the same for everyone. There seems to be no accountability for the wrongs that men, in general and throughout history, have done. Now, there is complete retaliation against all things women and a battle rages on to put women supposedly back in their place. Are there some women who take advantage and also commit wrong-doings? Yes. Do some women misguidedly hate all men? Yes. But that’s no reason to deny that there are problems out there against women by men.
Why can’t I have a choice whether I want to have a career or stay at home? Then, why can’t I have a partner who shares all the duties of life with me? Why can’t I play football because I, too, like the game? Why can’t I be respected enough to earn a top spot in a company even though I am fully capable? Why can’t I walk around with a short skirt if I want without being called a slut? Why can’t I earn the same pay as a man does doing the same work with the same experience? Are the masculine, classical virtues that you speak of not applicable to women as well? Am I to believe these virtues (Self-reliance, personal responsibility, honor, loyalty, integrity, personal development, compassion for the weak) are not feminine and modern too?
“Classical, virtuous manliness means holding the door for women, paying for the date, treating one’s girlfriend like a queen, and, of course, listening to her as an equal and taking an active interest in her life.”
Here’s what I mean by feminism: my fiance opens my door and then I turn over and open his door for him. When we go out to eat, sometimes I pay or we both contribute. That goes for other things in our life. He treats me well and I work to do the same for him too. He not only listens to me but he respects me too as I do him. We help each other and lean on each other for support. We both have things we like to do but we also take an active interest in each other’s life as well. He does dishes and I do the laundry. He has said he would be willing to stay at home with our future children for a time if it was more beneficial for me to work. I am not fully opposed to the idea of staying at home for at least some time either despite being a feminist. He’s proud of my accomplishments and supports me in what I want to do as I do the same for him. Are you catching the pattern here? As a feminist fighting for equality, I would like for both sexes to have choices. Women don’t have a particular place just like a man doesn’t. I am not destined to work in the home all the time raising children just like my future husband is not destined to be in any particular place either. We work as a team - that is what has been missing throughout history. Women were not seen as part of the team or even given a spot on it. We had little to no choices in what we wanted to do. That’s not equality.
I am grateful that times have changed. They may not be perfect but now I can have a career and a family, and not be expected to do everything. Instead, I can share all aspects of life with someone I love and who loves me. We both can be parents, both have careers, and both share the household duties. It’s so simple and yet it’s portrayed to be so complicated. It’s about respect and equal opportunities to choose. It’s about teamwork, not domination over the other. Lastly, it’s about balance. Why is that so hard and unattainable?
Alex Knepper
Nov 21 at 9:58 AM
“There seems to be no accountability for the wrongs that men, in general and throughout history, have done.”
Accountability to whom, for whose wrongs?
“Now, there is complete retaliation against all things women and a battle rages on to put women supposedly back in their place.”
Who is doing this? What are they advocating? I have no idea what you’re talking about—and I mean that literally. I have no idea what you’re trying to assert.
“Why can’t I have a choice whether I want to have a career or stay at home?”
You do have that choice.
“Then, why can’t I have a partner who shares all the duties of life with me?”
You can.
“Why can’t I play football because I, too, like the game?”
You can, but others are not obligated to watch you.
“Why can’t I be respected enough to earn a top spot in a company even though I am fully capable?”
If you are capable, you will get that spot. Ask Meg Whitman or Carly Fiorina.
“Why can’t I walk around with a short skirt if I want without being called a slut?”
You should be able to, yes.
“Why can’t I earn the same pay as a man does doing the same work with the same experience?”
You do, as I’ve already explained.
“Are the masculine, classical virtues that you speak of not applicable to women as well? Am I to believe these virtues (Self-reliance, personal responsibility, honor, loyalty, integrity, personal development, compassion for the weak) are not feminine and modern too?”
Although I can understand why you inferred that I meant that they were not also applicable to women, I did not mean to imply that. They usually manifest themselves somewhat differently because of the metaphysical and physiological/biological differences inherent in men and women, and usually in different areas.
“Why is that so hard and unattainable?”
It’s not. But it should be, as you mentioned, about choice. And the problem comes when we see the results of those choices. More women choose to stay at home, more men end up being engineers, more women end up staying home with children (naturally; they are more nurturing on average) men make more on average because they take riskier jobs and are willing to put in tougher physical labor (naturally; they are physically stronger on average)—and feminists turn around and get mad about that. But if men and women choose to make different choices, why is that a problem? Everything has to turn out 50/50 for a lot of feminists to be satisfied, and life just doesn’t work like that.
Alex Knepper
Nov 21 at 10:05 AM
I also want to get back to this rape question.
Some of you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth—Carmen, in particular. She says that “masculinity” causes rape—the idea that men are allowed to control women. Then she says it’s simply about power.
Well, what about prison rape? What explains that? Misogyny obviously cannot have a role in this.
Worse yet, our society jokes about prison rape and finds it funny. If there’s a culture that allows rape and doesn’t question it, it manifests itself in how we react to male-on-male rape.
The clear answer from my perspective would seem to be that, yes, rape is primarily about power (although not completely). This would involve preying on the physically weaker elements—those who cannot fight back. In prison, the weaker men will get raped. And in society, women are physiologically weaker than men. It has nothing to do with a social construct. It goes back to biology: one is stronger than the other. Now, it goes without saying that the physically strong(er) cannot be permitted to dominate the physically weak(er). The question is: how do we go about mitigating that practically and efficiently? What works, and what doesn’t? Can we ever hope to fully eliminate this, or can we just control it to the point where it isn’t a social crisis? And so on.
rachel
Nov 21 at 11:38 AM
male-male rape, male-female rape, female-female rape and female-male rape are all about power, domination, and control. they are all wrong. they are all not funny.
feminists often say that it is about masculinity because these are qualities men, particularly, are socialized to value. (not the “classical masculinist” values you are talking about alex). some men feel that they can achieve this ultimate masculinity by dominating and controlling the body of another person through rape.
if we change the things our society values from power and domination to equality and respect, we’d be getting somewhere.
caroline
Nov 22 at 1:05 AM
so wow. this is disgraceful to my gender. and yes, i am talking about the female gender. how horrible and hypocritical can you be if you are mocking alex who is merely speaking his opinion by degrading him for being an opinionated person, and also for being gay? he is speaking about how fucked up AU is by wasting our money because we already have several vehicles for wellness and health, and how our money can be better spent. instead, you disregard this and simply attack him for writing anything at all. can you be more horrible? god, calm down and go do something productive instead of attacking alex. please, this is embarrassing.
Alex Knepper
Nov 22 at 1:10 AM
Wow, I just noticed this from Trif:
“Ask yourself the truth on whether you even value a woman’s opinion as opposed to a male’s. Ask yourself if you have ever looked at a female and noticed her worth measured by her intellect and strength as opposed to how cute she looked or how big her boobs were. Have you ever put the blame on the female who was a victim of rape? Have you ever told yourself that women should not do this and women should not do that?”
Are you insane?
Like, this is truly, truly paranoid.
Without any reason, logic, evidence, or facts, you asked me if I even value the opinion of women or think that any women are intelligent.
If I believed in the concept of mental illness, you’d be a prime candidate. You are infected with a bizarre Victim Complex and a heavy paranoid streak.
“Everyone is out to get me!” may soon be “They’re coming to take me away, ha-ha!”
FYI: My favorite philosopher is female, my favorite singers are female, and one of my favorite politicians is female (Thatcher, not Palin). So…
Alex Knepper
Nov 22 at 1:15 AM
Caroline, I think AU students need to start come kind of “Normal People’s Club” to counteract the radical discourse on campus. It could be called Students for a Rational Dialogue or something—no ideology, no political beliefs—just the idea that we should be able to engage in a back-and-forth without calling each other racist, homophobic, misogynist, etc.
There’s a lot of pressure in the campus culture from radical groups, and I think it’s important to let students know that it’s okay to defy the politically correct line.
caroline
Nov 22 at 1:21 AM
im totally in, you be president ill be vp. i mean, since when does being a female mean i have to hate men? because that is what it sounds like according to this thread. i hope these people actually read your article and did just hop on some bizarre ‘attacking men’ train. i think there is something in the water here at AU.
Alex Knepper
Nov 22 at 1:47 AM
I blame Bon Appetit.
Trif
Nov 22 at 5:08 AM
I guess you need to keep reading all that I have written thus far because you would see that I am neither paranoid nor do I feel like I’m some kind of helpless, hopeless victim.
To say that I would be a perfect candidate if you believed in mental illness is pretty juvenile don’t cha think? I’ve been trying to help break down what I, and perhaps some others, may see to be as sexist. Now I’ve been pretty cordial thus far with you and have been critically analyzing the arguments being presented so how about we maintain a level of respect without trying to allude that the other is crazy, paranoid, delusional, or what have you. Spend your time wisely and attack my arguments through critical analysis instead of attacking me as a person (****notice I said “person” instead of “woman” so as to not accuse you of anything.
A longer response, particularly in regards to some of the arguments you have brought up will be given soon though I’ve come to the conclusion that I may be wasting my time with you. You, however, can rest assured that I’ve taken the time to read what men (and even some women) have had to say on sites that proclaim themselves as anti-feminist or pro-man just so I can try to understand a little more from a different perspective other than my own.
Alex Knepper
Nov 22 at 5:49 AM
I do attack your arguments through critical analysis. You’ve been conveniently ignoring quite a bit of it. You have yet to reply to the anti-male bias of the criminal justice system, for instance. Men always lose in divorce court and they get longer sentences for the same crimes. Some privilege.
Anyway, I don’t know why I’m not allowed to throw in a little bit of ad hominem if you are, too.
David Bartholomew
Nov 22 at 3:15 PM
Take your “ad hominem” and go back to 4chan. This is college, not a community of trolls.
Not Impressed
Nov 22 at 3:49 PM
Hey Alex, in this new club of yours, will people have to debate issues without calling each other bitches or dykes?
If so, you’ve just excluded yourself from your own club.
Christopher Conway
Nov 22 at 4:53 PM
There’s something about the way you write that makes me a little sick. I can’t tell if its the elitism and condescension, or the sheer self righteousness, or the constant and militant hostility and glee in being as insulting as possible, no doubt honed from years on 4 chan. Or it could be something else.
Don’t think I’ve forgotten being your roommate on NSO. If you represent what is virtuous and classically masculine, then I’m proud to be whatever I am.
Alex Knepper
Nov 22 at 5:05 PM
Chris thinks he knows me from rooming with me for one night two years ago. Is this the kind of thing the papers are going to ask for in ten years when I’m controversial on a national level? You can be the expert on All Things Alex.
“Hey Alex, in this new club of yours, will people have to debate issues without calling each other bitches or dykes?”
I don’t have a problem with ad hominem attacks, as long as they aren’t the crux of the argument.
You’re being highly manipulative. I could write a gorgeous dissertation with 700 endnotes and then end it with “So take that, bitches” and then you would go “OMG YOU CALLED US BITCHES CAN’T YOU ARGUE WITHOUT CALLING NAMES I AM SO OFFENDED.”
Also, I would never call someone a dyke—well, at least not in a non-joking manner.
Trif
Nov 22 at 5:05 PM
Here is a definition of feminism according to dictionary.com:
–noun
1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.
3. feminine character.
Cultural Dictionary
feminism
The doctrine — and the political movement based on it — that women should have the same economic, social, and political rights as men. (See under “Anthropology, Psychology, and Sociology.”)
feminism
A movement for granting women political, social, and economic equality with men. (See women’s movement.)
And a definition for sexism too:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sexism?jss=1:
–noun
1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person’s sex, as in restricted job opportunities; esp., such discrimination directed against women.
n.
1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
2. Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.
The belief that one sex (usually the male) is naturally superior to the other and should dominate most important areas of political, economic, and social life. Sexist discrimination in the United States in the past has denied opportunities to women in many spheres of activity. Many allege that it still does.
The belief that one sex (usually the male) is naturally superior to the other and should dominate most important areas of political, economic, and social life.
Trif
Nov 22 at 5:06 PM
Here are some other good sites if interested:
http://www.urbanministry.org/wiki/sexism-and-gender-discrimination-statistics
http://math.berkeley.edu/~kirby/sexism.html
THIS WAS A REALLY GOOD ARTICLE:
http://www.portfolio.com/executives/features/2008/03/17/Sexism-in-the-Workplace/index.html
http://www.understandingprejudice.org/links/sexism.htm
Don’t worry; I still have more to go on.
It seems you are only skimming through some of what I have written based on your comments. How unfortunate! You can bring a horse to the water but you can’t make him drink it of course.
And with the exception of my first message calling you a little boy, no other bits of ad hominem have really been thrown your way on my end. You’ve dished out quite enough. Besides, I wrote plenty of talking points for you that you haven’t quite addressed either.
Alas, my time spent on this message board is nearing its end as I have other things to do as I’m sure you do as well. I’ve already made many decent attempts at presenting to you some good arguments, not to simply change your mind as only the individual has the power to ultimately change his/her own mind but to hopefully put forth a perspective that is not full of hatred towards men and yet is still in support for the feminist movement.
Alex Knepper
Nov 22 at 5:10 PM
Oh, and I guess this is the new line of attack: say I’m “from 4chan.”
It doesn’t go a very long way toward addressing the anti-male discrimination I listed and why the privileged, powerful white males are getting the short end of the stick there.
Alex Knepper
Nov 22 at 5:15 PM
I have made explicitly clear approximately twenty-seven times that I am a classical feminist in the vein of Wollstonecraft, Stanton, and Anthony: they were concerned with women, not with narrow, upper-class, white Northeastern faux-grievances. Those pioneers of women’s equality would be utterly aghast at what campus feminists have turned their glorious movement into.
If there are talking points you’d like me to address, name what I’ve overlooked and I will address them.
But I think it’s a rather important point that you’ve overlooked that individual men very badly get the short end of the stick in the judiciary. This isn’t just an issue of “oh, not enough people in the Senate have vaginas.” It’s an issue of how ordinary men, day in and day out, get longer sentences than women, are abused by their ex-wives who won’t let them see their children, and have to work twice as hard to seem half as trustworthy. And then, once men are in prison, they’re subject to the horrors of prison rape. If rape stems from misogyny, what explains it?
Moreover, why do feminists not see this as a problem? And how do they explain this in their religious dogma of the privileged-male paradigm?
Skut
Nov 23 at 12:07 AM
Alex, I’ll bite:
Feminism provides girls with strong intellectual armor against the brutal anti-intellectualism pervasive in America today. There’s no real equivalent for males, though lots of males in radical political and/or social movements like the punk-rock community openly embrace feminism, to their benefit. The upshot is that American men badly underperform, as you mentioned, because they’ve internalized the loutish behavior encouraged in the world around them. Stereotypical depictions of men as virtual Neanderthals stem from this. This situation is not the fault of feminism, if anything, it shows that more males would benefit if the lessons of feminism were applied to them as well.
Patriarchal structures still exist, as others have mentioned, and feminism combats them. Sarah Palin and others like her are only in such positions because they are part of a reactionary assault on all forms of equity and equality. More to the point, how can you lambast feminists for allegedly relying on faith rather than evidence, while lauding a woman who exemplifies willful ignorance of reality in favor of religious zealotry? She’s not a fan of civil rights for people of your sexual orientation, either. By the way, all civil rights arrive through courts, long before public opinion supports them.
Also, and I cannot stress this enough, an imperialist warmonger like Sec. State Clinton is not a leftist. You don’t know what the Left is. I’ve encountered some genuine leftists at AU, but that doesn’t necessarily include everyone with whom you disagree.
Trif
Nov 23 at 3:50 AM
See, here’s where doing a little research comes in handy.
Yes, more women do get custody over men and it’s because women are told they are the caregivers. Granting custody is not some her vs him battle; it’s who can provide the best care for the children and since this has always been an expectation of women, women have been granted custody more often. Are there crappy mothers out there? Yup. Are there decent dads who probably deserve to get custody but don’t end up getting it? Yup. So, interestingly enough, consistently putting women “in their place when it comes to the role of caregiver” now has a backlash. I’m not surprised that most women do get custody. But here’s an article that should help fathers especially who wish to receive custody by encouraging them to take on more the role of CAREGIVER, a role traditionally pushed solely on the woman: http://www.divorcemag.com/articles/Child_Custody/custodycase.html.
Trif
Nov 23 at 3:50 AM
Here is an article that actually shows how more fathers are actually gaining custody nowadays:
http://www.divorceguide.com/free-divorce-advice/children-and-divorce/why-more-fathers-are-getting-custody.html. Again, it encourages men to take on a more active role when it comes to caregiving and shows that more men are taking on that role. But society, in general, still has the mindset that women ought to be the caregivers. Eliminate the mindset that women and men have a particular place and you’ll see more fathers getting custody of their children. As far as your personal experience with this that has left you bitter, perhaps you don’t know the full story. There’s always more than one side to the story. What I see from you is that you’ve placed the minority of men who are treated like shit as if they are the majority and I’m not convinced they are. My parent’s divorce shows a different story. My father had mentally, emotionally, and physically abused my mother during the time of their marriage. My sister would cry and even throw up every time we had to visit him on the weekends clearly showing that, quite frankly, my father sucked. He also had the traditional mindset that many men have regarding women.
Trif
Nov 23 at 3:51 AM
My father has never been a good husband or father and though we have a pretty good relationship today I still don’t feel he’s a good father. He also decided to move all the way down to Florida and hasn’t even made a dent in paying the amount of child support that he owes. My mother has given up on this. My father has also admitted to me that on three separate occasions, he literally got in the car and started driving north to eventually kill my mother and perhaps my grandma or aunts and then conclude by killing himself. Other divorced men may not be this bad or they could be worse but if you think I’m going to show pity for all the men out there then why not learn a thing or two about what too many men have done.
As for emotional abuse: all the sites I went to said the same thing – that emotional abuse is hard to quantify and put in the form of a statistic and that both men and women are victims of it. One site did mention a study done in Canada where 81% of the male respondents admitted to psychologically abusing a woman.
Trif
Nov 23 at 3:52 AM
Physical and sexual abuse, on the other hand, are statistically significantly higher for women as opposed to men.
Here are some sites regarding physical and sexual abuse: http://www.aardvarc.org/dv/statistics.shtml and http://www.abanet.org/domviol/statistics.html and http://www.rileycenter.org/domestic-violence-statistics.html. Pay close attention to statistics like this: “95% of all victims of domestic violence are women. Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report, U.S. Dept. of Justice.” Let’s not forget sites like this: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims with statistics like this: “9 of every 10 rape victims were female in 2003.” One may conclude based on common knowledge that physical and sexual abuse also has emotional effects. Quite potentially because of statistics like this: “1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape)” and this “About 3% of American men — or 1 in 33 — have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime” women may actually suffer more emotional abuse. Abuse, of course, is abuse and no one deserves it. I haven’t heard a lot of women get off as easily as you say they do when it comes to them abusing men. No one should.
Spare me the pity party for men when so many more women face more problems and abuse. Of course this doesn’t mean that when a male suffers I say to myself, “Oh, good. Now the men will know what the women go through” but let’s put the overall picture in its proper focus here. KEY WORD: OVERALL PICTURE.
Trif
Nov 23 at 3:53 AM
A massive campaign for women’s health versus men’s? I hear about men’s health issues all the time like prostate cancer, heart health, etc. This argument is a pretty obscure one at best. If there is more awareness about women’s issues, could it be because more women are taking a more active role in getting it out there to the public? Am I to understand that it is a woman’s fault or even anyone’s fault because she lives longer? There is one THEORY that I have learned of that helps to explain why women live longer, in general, and it has to do with the fact that a woman menstruates creating a need for the body to produce more fresh, nutrient-rich blood on a regular basis. Overall, health issues are health issues and no sex is in the clear from them.
I AGREE with you on the draft but you will find that many MEN are also in favor of keeping women out of the draft. Why? Because they think that women are fragile, weak beings who need to be protected or who couldn’t handle the job or who would simply distract male soldiers causing harm to everyone. If some men had it their way, women wouldn’t even be in the military.
Trif
Nov 23 at 3:53 AM
As far as Title IX: I could care less if people came to watch. It’s the denying me to play on a sport not offered to women but offered to men that I have a problem with such as me with football the first year I tried to play. Here’s Title IX: http://www.justice.gov/crt/cor/coord/titleixstat.php. I don’t really see how any boy’s teams ever got cut because no one watches the girls but I am aware that some boy’s teams get cut because a significant amount of money was spent for a large sports program for boys while a sports program for the girls is severely undercut and unsupported (by means of funding).
Trif
Nov 23 at 3:54 AM
On another note, it’s so pathetic to hear people say that women are physically inferior. Case in point: while training for football, I was excelling in the weight room in various areas and when I finally made the football team (my only and last year to do so unfortunately) I was placed on 2nd string just based on my weight room results alone. Had I weight trained more and had more than the one year of experience playing football throughout school, the possibilities would have been endless. At the peak of my weight training, I often had to inquire the oversight of THREE spotters. I credit the increase of my physical abilities to a male trainer who was willing to let go of any stereotypes of women and actually treat me like an equal. I also credit my physical abilities to myself because I refused to believe what people told me or said about women in general that they are weak. We are not weak and if people stopped shoving such lies down our throats, we would see a much greater amount of women reaching physical potentials equaling out to many men. Even today, there are some women who are physically just as strong if not stronger than some men. Imagine if the psychological bullshit of barriers were broken down. I would also like to add that I would hardly call child birth a physically weak experience. In fact, I often wonder how men would fare if they were biologically able to give birth. A big problem for why we see less women showing their true physical potential is because so many in society tell them that they can’t do something and that they are too weak. The BIGGEST problem is that WOMEN BELIEVE THIS BULL SHIT. This goes for every other area too.
Trif
Nov 23 at 3:54 AM
Lazy bums? The media doesn’t portray ANYBODY very well. No one cares about most if not all of the ridiculous stereotypes that are portrayed. If you find people that do care, they certainly don’t just think it’s one group being portrayed poorly. Lazy bums, super skinny babes, unintelligent men and women, nagging housewives . . . no one is spared.
Men are not always presumed guilty. The facts remain, however, that a significant majority (see previous facts stated) of men are guilty of committing most of the offenses. Always presumed guilty is also untrue because there have been many cases where female victims of rape, for instance, were made to believe that THEY actually deserved to be raped whether it’s because the victim wore sexy clothing or drank too much. Rape is rape and NO ONE deserves it. Men in prisons don’t deserve it either. Many men in prisons, too, suffer from a culture of dominance and supposed “masculinity.” I am aware that some women (a small minority) falsely accuse a male of committing rape or some other abuse and the actions of those women are deplorable and despicable, but once again, a small minority should not replace the VAST MAJORITY. Maybe you could find a statistic or something regarding the number of falsely accused men and abuse.
Trif
Nov 23 at 3:55 AM
It’s not exactly clear what you mean by men beating out women but the facts also remain that men and women are still not equal with each other in many areas including the work force, wages, politically, among others. You list 40 professions in which women have equal rights – where did you find such a thing and if so, do you have a source as which professions those are? Also, 40 professions out of how many are there in this world? Should 40 professions be correct, it’s a pretty small number compared to the rest of them.
I’ve already listed some websites that provide facts that women have not achieved the equality we are fighting for in the work force. This article explains in economic terms why there is inequality. Basically, it argues that women are not paid as much as men for the same job because it is expected that women cannot devote the same amount of energy that men are able to for the same job due to the household and caregiver expectations that women have ON TOP of her career. Why she must often bare the sole responsibility or the majority of the responsibility for household chores and caregiver is because of the social conditioning that that is her “role.”
Here’s another article looking at the gender differences in pay in an economical point of view:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2647076.
Trif
Nov 23 at 3:56 AM
Here’s one of my favorite articles in which a study found gender discrimination in the hiring of orchestra musicians. The portion of the study holding blind auditions found that more women were chosen when just the musician’s talents were being heard and the musician herself was not seen. http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-8282(200009)90:4<715:OITIO”>2.0.CO;2-A
Vagina Monologues: I don’t what kind of Vagina Monologues you’ve been to but the ones I’ve been to have never put on skits with regards to “good rape.” That actually sounds absurd. There is no such thing as “good rape” as ALL rape is bad. In a sense, there are Penis Monologues all over the place. The skits come in the forms of Playboy, Hustler, porn, Viagra commercials, ED commercials, TV, movies, music, the easy access to condoms, etc. There are different standards when it comes to sex and men versus sex and women but that’s been changing for a while now too. Women have started in the past few decades to speak out more about anything sex-related. The purpose of the Vagina Monologues is to raise awareness about various women’s issues and allow for the free and open discussion of sex-related topics such as her right to sexual pleasure. I actually wish men would put on a Penis Monologues program if only to raise awareness about many of the issues they may face as well. Obviously, you would have to find men who’d be willing to put on such a program.
Trif
Nov 23 at 3:57 AM
When you made responses like who is retaliating against women and what are they advocating, it’s quite simple: various Christian groups are trying to say that women have a specific place according to the Bible and while the whole 80% of the American population that is Christian does not necessarily believe this, there are many outspoken critics who make such claims. The KKK makes the same claims. Anyone who is anti-female or pro-male makes the claim that women have their particular place and it’s in the home with the children. Even various women who lack any insight and independent thought make these claims. Traditionalists and many conservatives make these claims. Often the common denominator is religious doctrine whether it be the Bible, Koran, or even the Torah. Who should be held accountable and to whom? Men who commit acts of abuse or discrimination should be held accountable to the men and women who are just and do stand for gender equality. Women should also be held accountable for things like falsely accusing an innocent man for rape, committing acts of abuse, and for believing in the bull shit they are socially conditioned to believe. You and I might agree that more women should be standing up for themselves and taking a more active role in their own lives. The words “I can’t” should be turned into the words “I can.” It’s not that women are weak but some of us ACT and PRETEND like we are. When the World Wars hit home for America, the men went off to fight while this country was left without a workforce to keep it running. It was then that women were called forth to rise above and take up rank. She traded her apron for a welder’s hat and got to work proving not only that she could equally DO the job but that in some instances, she did it better.
Trif
Nov 23 at 3:57 AM
With regards to all the other questions I asked and you responded that I can, perhaps you are right on many of those. I technically can do many of those things but I (meaning women) still face many obstacles socially speaking. There is still a strong mindset put in place in society that I am NOT SUPPOSED to do those things. That’s a problem that needs to change.
As for equal pay and high placement opportunities, you are wrong on those. I’ve already given a couple of articles and sites that support my argument in my messages. A couple women making it to the top is not enough to say that equality has been achieved. Again, this http://www.jstor.org/stable/2647076 proves my point as does this http://www.portfolio.com/executives/features/2008/03/17/Sexism-in-the-Workplace/index.html and there are plenty others out there.
There are injustices everywhere. Am I looking for a completely 50/50 stance in every single area? No, but I mostly would like to see any socially conditioned barriers struck down so that people can fully (without any social and even religious expectations or any other psychological conditionings) make up their own minds and have a choice. I don’t want stereotypes of what a person thinks a woman can and cannot do to affect her chances and desires of doing what she wants to do. Unfortunately, and despite the progress made, these stereotypes, social expectations, and other barriers still stand in a women’s way today. The social barriers and stereotypes for men also need to be deconstructed so that more men can be nurses, caregivers, or do any other thing traditionally associated with being “feminine.”
Trif
Nov 23 at 3:58 AM
phew!
Trif
Nov 23 at 4:10 AM
Here’s the missing article from my post at 2:55AM: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2534997
Trif
Nov 24 at 4:14 PM
Wollstonecraft, Stanton and Anthony are also great feminists, especially the latter two of the three. With Stanton and Anthony though, how are modern day feminists so different than them? Stanton was quite the radical of her day and would have been seen not only as a man-hater but as someone who was against the rights of the black community. What she wanted was the destruction of inequalities (including the social conditions that I’ve been speaking of) in all areas for both women and black people, she would not yield unless rights were given to all.
To place in favor the feminists of before and then try to disqualify the feminists of today, essentially accuse many of us as not being true and genuine to the “traditional” feminist movement, and then go on to say that there is no need for feminism today whilst you are not a woman yourself who has had to experience any of the inequalities against her today, is quite a disillusioned, unintelligent, and contemptibly inadequate attempt to vilify so many women of today.
Enough is enough.
Alex Knepper
Nov 26 at 2:47 PM
Oh gosh! I feel bad that this all got pushed aside.
Only a radical feminist could spin the fact that women gain custody of their children more often as a negative for women!
Trif
Nov 27 at 3:31 AM
HAHAHAHAHA. That’s your counterargument to all that I gave you?!?!? Pathetic. Come back again when you’re ready to play on my field with some actual effort.
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